Are anti and short pips rubbers still any good ?

[Callagun]

I heard from couple of blokes that anti & short pips are useless rubbers in table tennis .
Is this true ?

[James Z]

For your backhand (100% absolute no)
For your forehand 5% yes

Click here to read why wide (stiff) pips (incorrectly known as short pips) is the absolute worst rubber for your backhand

[James Z]

Long pips & anti arrived around early to mid-1970s.
The original intended purpose of anti & long pips was NOT deception.
It was to provide the choppers an ability to be able to handle the strong top spin loops using back spin of their own.
But the (click link)robotNazis quickly figured out that long pips were superior to anti for that chopping the heavy top spin loops of robotNazis .
This is why the robotNazis controlled ITTF quickly took action and banned all long pips at the 1977 BGM , but continues to call their slim (flex) pips as long pips to confuse the clueless chopper fools. And this ITTF strategy (calling useless social slim (flex) pips as long pips) has worked now for 48 years now.
Anti was also quickly rejected by choppers who preferred long pips. There is no know pro chopper (may be one or two) in history that uses Anti , after both Anti & Long pips arrived at about the same time .
Ever since then, the strategy of ITTF has been to steer choppers away from useless slim (flex) pips (after the long pips ban at the 1977 BGM in Birmingham ) towards even more useless anti & wide (stiff) pips (incorrectly called short pips) rubbers.
This also has been primary strategy used by the infamous Scholer & Adham Sharara.
Of course, the two previous ITTF presidents, Adham Sharara & Thomas Weikert tried desperately to turn table tennis into pickleball - Sharara moving Table tennis to the 40 mm ball (with plans to move to 44 mm ball) and Weikert started an all-new sport called TTX which had thankfully been a disastrous failure. The crazy irony of this is that pickleball is now trying to be more like tennis and table tennis by moving to composite rackets for more spin& speed , thus original strategy of removing all the spin and speed of table tennis (tennis) . It is of course a very clever & very sucessful startegy, now that pickleball is so wildly popular that it may even eclipse tennis.
What evolved after the long pips ban is a loooooooooong story that has turned inti a tit for tat battle (of slim (flex) pips and now anti) between two German equipment dealers Scholer (part of the corrupt ITTF) & Dr.Neubauer.
Anyway my point is that anti has primarily become a blocker’s rubber and that is only because ITTF, in its aim to control slim (flex) pips, only added limit of 0.5 on COF (Coefficient of friction) on slim pips but not on anti with its (click link) 2008 Frictionless pips ban (sort of Act 2 of the battle between ITTF’s Scholer and Dr.Neubauer……….act 1 being the 1998 Durban Aspect Ratio Massacre of choppers) .
ITTF also continued to confuse choppers by pushing for the use of wide (stiff) pips on the backhand. But the fact is that, while wide (stiff) pips is theoretically best rubber (for forehand) if you are talented enough to be able to use , it is also the absolute worst backhand rubber.

[merlin el mago]

Playing vs antitop the best rubber for backhand are inverted if you are young or in good shape, for old or handicaped (I'm old & handicaped) I think is short pips.

[Nicanor]

Playing vs antitop the best rubber for backhand are inverted if you are young or in good shape, for old or handicaped (I'm old & handicaped) I think is short pips.

I do not follow you
You cannot control what ALL your opponents will use.
Not all of your opponents will be using Anti.
Not all of your opponents will be using spinny inverted
Not all of your opponents will be using long pips

Unless you are so good that you can switch your own racket to match opponents' rackets.

You choose a racket that matches your own playing style as best as possible and against all possible opponents.

[Slepy]

Playing vs antitop the best rubber for backhand are inverted if you are young or in good shape,

How ?
Because 90% of amateurs (& even a significant % of pros) cannot play their best using inverted.
You are a classic victim of ITTF brainwashing that all children * youth should use ONLY double inverted
I was a victim of this ITTF brainwashing as well till last year till I realized how dumb this when I was pointed out how Indian girls (led by Indian women) have overwhelmingly rejected this double inverted nonsense in favor of smart rackets

for old or handicaped (I'm old & handicaped) I think is short pips.

Wide (stiff) pips (incorrectly called short pips) is the best forehand rubber if you have the natural table tennis talent to use it.
But wide (stiff) pips is the absolute worst rubber for backhand regardless of age or para.
Wide (stiff) pips has way too many weaknesses to be a good backhand rubber even against anti players.

James Z posted them yesterday
Here is the link again

Remember that as far as weakside pips (& back spin & versatility & overall effectiveness) goes
chickens (wide (stiff) pips) can fly a little, doves (medium pips) can fly a little higher and bar-headed geese (LARC slim (flex) pips) can fly much higher but Ruppell’s vulture (actual non-ITTF Long (flex) Pips) can soar the highest

[merlin el mago]

Playing vs antitop the best rubber for backhand are inverted if you are young or in good shape, for old or handicaped (I'm old & handicaped) I think is short pips.

I do not follow you
You cannot control what ALL your opponents will use.
Not all of your opponents will be using Anti.
Not all of your opponents will be using spinny inverted
Not all of your opponents will be using long pips

Unless you are so good that you can switch your own racket to match opponents' rackets.

You choose a racket that matches your own playing style as best as possible and against all possible opponents.

I used before short/wide pips, so I know how to use it.

Now I'm using long pips but I will try short/wide pips to play against antitop & long pips for versatility.

I know antitop is the best weapon vs long pips but I think will be more complicated to adapt.

[merlin el mago]

@slepy

I'm 66 years old playing all my life, so I know what I'm saying.

When I say inverted for backhand to play vs antitop is because is the rubber with more gears if you have proper technique, for me the best strategy vs antitop is to play fast, long and without spin to avoid the player close to the table.

[Slepy]

@slepy
if you have proper technique,

May be you are one of those 10% of players who has the proper technique to use inverted on the backhand but I do not think 90% of human don't but 90% think they are Ma Long

[James Z]

I know antitop is the best weapon vs long pips but I think will be more complicated to adapt.

How ?
Isn't slim (flex) pips (incorrectly called long pips) harder to learn to use than anti ?

Again I totally disagree that anti anti is the best weapon against long pips.
I don't see how.

The dynamic range of actual long pips (even slim (flex) pips) is far superior to anti.

First of all anti is useless for choppers. The original intended purpose of anti & long pips when it arrived in early 1970s was to help choppers for spin reversal against long pips. But choppers quickly rejected anti.
This is also why ITTF also quickly banned long pips in 1977 and not anti.

Anti has survived only as a blocker weapon for those who do not want to learn to use slim (flex) pips for close to the table blocking.

I do not know any pro chopper in the history of the sport that used backhand anti. (Hilton used it mostly on forehand I believe)
This is because anti is ABSOLURELY useless & ineffective in many way for away from the table choppers.

Also wide (stiff) pips are TOTALLY useless as a backhand rubber (Yes it is the best forehand rubber) .
It also brings up the question as to why you switched to slim (flex) or long (flex) pips if wide (stiff) pips & anti were so great.

As far as I am concerned actual long pips of OX type is the only viable backhand rubber for amateurs (if you do not have the skills and talent to use inverted on backhand...........90% amateurs don't) whether you are a close to the table blocker (or chop blocker) or away from the table chopper.
I have gone thru literally 1000s of iteration for testing slim (flex) & long (flex) pips rubbers with and without sponge in actual league & tournament play over and over.
Even a 0.5 mm sponge under pips is useless for an amateur. The difference between 0.5mm pips & OX is astronomical.

The only players who need sponge under the pips are semi-pro choppers . This is because the illegally boosted loops will shoot off the wood if the sponge is not there to cushion the impact and also increase dwell time and so spin reversal.

It does not matter what style an amateur player plays, whether close to the table or all round at and away from the table with a mix of attack & defence . It is much easier for a looper to return even smashes from a pips with sponge rubber but it is very difficult against a fast smash coming from an OX rubber. The ball is so dead.
Also the spin reversal is very poor when using pips with sponge because an amateur looper does not generate enough top spin as a semi-pro or pro chopper

[Gisela 2005]

I heard from couple of blokes that anti & short pips are useless rubbers in table tennis .
Is this true ?

Not sure what you mean by "still"

Wide pips (with or without sponge) were never any good as backhand rubber anyway.
Only best for for forehand with sponge but only if you have the talent to use it.
Most shakehanders don't. (There had been a few penhold world champions)

Anti was introduced in the early 70s as an answer for chopper to use against loopers.
But it was quickly discarded by choppers when long pips came along an year or two later.
Naturally ITTF promptly banned long pips at the 1977 BGM un Birmingham , England when they saw its potential for choppers as examlified by Liang GeLiang

[Cataneccio]

Anti may still be useful for some older or para players as a forehand rubber.
This is only for players who never learned to lopp in thei youth and or have some health or other conodtions that prevent them from looping and also cannot flat hit the ball as well.
If a player can flat hit well on the forehand they should use wide pips and not anti.
Either case the bakhand should be long pips though you see rare exceptions such as Mattias Falck or Sutirtha Mukherjee .
The both use spinny inverted on the backhand and wide pips on the forehand.
This is rare because they are both shakehanders.
Of course this is a very good combo if you are a penholder as in Liu Guoliang or 2024 USA women's championb Hong Lin.

[Kausalya]

Anti may still be useful for some older or para players as a forehand rubber.
This is only for players who never learned to lopp in thei youth and or have some health or other conodtions that prevent them from looping and also cannot flat hit the ball as well.
If a player can flat hit well on the forehand they should use wide pips and not anti.
Either case the bakhand should be long pips though you see rare exceptions such as Mattias Falck or Sutirtha Mukherjee .
The both use spinny inverted on the backhand and wide pips on the forehand.
This is rare because they are both shakehanders.
Of course this is a very good combo if you are a penholder as in Liu Guoliang or 2024 USA women's championb Hong Lin.

I believe John Hilton used forehand anti (black rubber) and backhand slim (flex) pips (also black rubber) but also twiddled a lot

[merlin el mago]

@slepy
if you have proper technique,

May be you are one of those 10% of players who has the proper technique to use inverted on the backhand but I do not think 90% of human don't but 90% think they are Ma Long

Ufff

When I was young and in good shape was more easy for me to do topspin with backhand than with forehand, with forehand did more speed but with backhand did more spin and was a lot more easy to do openings or topspin super chop balls and I'm not considering only the 10% of players.

I respect and love the freedom to use the equipment everybody wants or needs because I consider variety like a richness for your sport.

I use backhand long pips because I'm old and handicaped.

[merlin el mago]

I know antitop is the best weapon vs long pips but I think will be more complicated to adapt.

How ?
Isn't slim pips (incorrectly called long pips) harder to learn to use than anti ?
Yes, but depends the kind of anti: glanti is very difficult and more effective and with or low grip it's easy but a lot less dangerous against inverted
Again I totally disagree that anti anti is the best weapon against long pips.
I don't see how.
I refer exactly the antis with a little or low grip not glanti, because don't generate any spin or very low so when you use LP you don't receive spin so is a dead ball and your ball will be high and easy to smash with anti with little or low grip but impossible with glanti frictionless anti
The dynamic range of actual long pips (even slim pips) is far superior to anti.
Try to play vs an experienced anti when you play using long pips and you will see
First of all anti is useless for choppers. The original intended purpose of anti & long pips when it arrived in early 1970s was to help choppers for spin reversal against long pips. But choppers quickly rejected anti.
This is also why ITTF also quickly banned long pips in 1977 and not anti.

Anti has survived only as a blocker weapon for those who do not want to learn to use slim pips for close to the table blocking.

I do not know any pro chopper in the history of the sport that used backhand anti. (Hilton used it mostly on forehand I believe)
This is because anti is ABSOLURELY useless & ineffective in many way for away from the table choppers.
I don't like to play with antis with or without frition
Also wide pips are TOTALLY useless as a backhand rubber (Yes it is the best forehand rubber) .
It also brings up the question as to why you switched to slim or long pips if wide pips & anti were so great.
Again play using long pips vs experienced short pips and you will see
As far as I am concerned actual long pips of OX type is the only viable backhand rubber for amateurs (if you do not have the skills and talent to use inverted on backhand...........90% amateurs don't) whether you are a close to the table blocker (or chop blocker) or away from the table chopper.
I have gone thru literally 1000s of iteration for testing slim & long pips rubbers with and without sponge in actual league & tournament play over and over.
Even a 0.5 mm sponge under pips is useless for an amateur. The difference between 0.5mm pips & OX is astronomical.

The only players who need sponge under the pips are semi-pro choppers . This is because the illegally boosted loops will shoot off the wood if the sponge is not there to cushion the impact and also increase dwell time and so spin reversal.

It does not matter what style an amateur player plays, whether close to the table or all round at and away from the table with a mix of attack & defence . It is much easier for a looper to return even smashes from a pips with sponge rubber but it is very difficult against a fast smash coming from an OX rubber. The ball is so dead.
Also the spin reversal is very poor when using pips with sponge because an amateur looper does not generate enough top spin as a semi-pro or pro chopper
It’s very difficult and not consistent to attack with OX long pips except when you use long pips without reversal and disruption, I always see OX LP as a defensive weapon, If I want attack I prefer inverted or short pips

[merlin el mago]

Guys what about Mima Ito....?

[James Z]

Guys what about Mima Ito....?

What about Mima ?
Let us just assume to start with, that she has lived upto her potential with wide pips backhand
(She has not but I will get to that in a minute)

Even if Mima Ito is so good, what does that really prove for an average amateur player ............actually even a pro player ?
I cannot think of anyone, other than Johnny Huang (may be there are a handful more) with a successful backhand
Wang Tao tried but did not last long.

People got to get over this delusion that a style or rubber will work for a lowly amateur schmuck, just because it may have worked for one or two pros. Players like Mima Ito, Ding Song, Han Ying, Hou Yingchao, Wang Yang, John Hilton etc. are exceptions rather than the rule .
Manufacturers try to sell their products such as wide pips by creating mass hysteria & hype.

Wide pips or anti are just not backhand rubbers for average amateur players. Some pro & semi-pro players seem to be successful but they "seem" so because they are so talented & seem to be very successful but that does not prove that they are playing upto their potential.
Pro players and coaches choose wrong rubbers & blades ALL the time

Anyway, getting back to Mima Ito, she is a failure so far & probably a victim of bad coaching (and or influence by her mother ?).
She looks like Ding Yaping and Ding Yaping herself suggested what backhand rubber Mima Ito is using.

Every tournamnet it is the same story > Mima will beat one Chinese player in quarters & lose to another in the semi finals.
She is still young and needs to try something else like listen to Deng Yaping etc.
Same story with anti, with Luka, Marcus & Ayhika etc. They are exceptions rather than the rule.
Anti was originally introduced to help choppers in early 70's ( original intent was not to help blockers like Cai Zhenhua, Seemiller, Boggan etc. but they just happened to be very successful with it) but was quickly rejected by choppers in favor of long pips which came an year or two later.
But ITTF quickly realized what a nuisance choppers can become as with the success of Liang Geliang & promptly banned long pips at the 1977 BGM in Birmingham in England.
Then they also added further restrictions on both anti & slim (flex) pips with the two color rue of 1983
So my point is that anti & wide pips are just not backhand rubbers.
Wide pips is theoretically the best forehand rubber if one is talented like Johnny Huang or Matt Falck but human bio mechanics &other reasons make wide pips the worst backhand rubber.
Anti is the next worst rubber for backhand. The frictionless anti are a little better but honorary loopers choose them because they are easier to lean to use than slim (flex) pips or long pips & of course are afraid of social rejection from robotNazis .

Anti may still work the best for some older or para players who never learned to loop in their youth or can no longer loop due to some medical or health limitations . This of course is assuming that they only use OX long pips on the backhand. Of course they can learn to twiddle like John Hilton did for maximum effectiveness

[merlin el mago]

Short pips are for people don't know how to make topspin and only know to drive or smash the ball, so perfect for forehand.

My case is different because I only want to use against anti or long pips because I consider and experienced is the best weapon.

[James Z]

Short pips are for people don't know how to make topspin

Not exactly.
Top pros using wide (stiff) pips on forehnd can loop better than most amateurs
I have played against the very best of them in tournaments (all were penholders)

It is not that they cannot loop but chose to stay with block smash play style it is the most efficient.
If you can deliver the ball consistently from Point A to B in the fastest way using flat hits, you do not need any spin in table tennis or in any other racket sport
Most of us cannot and that is why we need spin in racket sport
These wide (stiff) pips hitters can at the highest levels of the sport but most of us cannot.
I never cease to be amazed watching Ayhika Mukherjee being able to play at such high level using wide (stiff) pips on forehand.
And I am even more amazed watching Sutirtha Mukherjee who also has wide (stiff) pips on forehand.
I have seen He Zhiwen in person in action many times, both in top tournaments and very strangely coaching children using double inverted (how to loop etc LOL) .
Johnny Huang is of course one in a billion.
Jimmy Connors was quite possibly the last great pure flat hitter of the ball.
All above players have the pure table tennis skills IN ADDITION TO ATHLETIC skills. One of them is having superior reflexes being able to stay close to the table & take the ball early.
Most less talented players cannot, even at the pro level.

My case is different because I only want to use against anti or long pips because I consider and experienced is the best weapon.

I still do not understand it
Because , are you saying that you use two different setups, one with wide (stiff) pips backhand & one with slim (flex) or long (flex) pips backhand ?

If it works for you that is great and more power to you .

But as a coach I would not recommend it but there are always exceptions like you.

My personal experience as a slim (flex) pips player when I played in tournaments (now I am a long pips player but sadly cannot play even daily matches let alone tournaments) , I found it much easier to play against anti than other slim (flex) pips players.
But I actually did have a bad nightmare loss against a player who used anti both sides but thats is because he was good with that choice of dumb racket ( a dumb racket has same rubber type both sides but in almost all cases usually double spinny inverted not anti).

Yes wide (stiff) pips players usually have an easy time against slim (flex) or long (flex) pips players but that is with wide (stiff) pips on forehand.
I guess you are a rare exception.
But as I said I do not recommend switching setups in actual tournaments depending on the rackets of your opponents.
It is crazy for the most part except when you against some robotNazis who absolutely cannot play against slim pips or long pips. In that case I won't blame you if you use slim or long pips & let these robotNazis beat themselves to death

[merlin el mago]

I prefer long pips against double inverted players, I can manage well with both types of long pips: with or without friction. I like to play close to the table for physical reason not for my skills or technique. Training still can chop 2-3 meters far from the table but as you know when competition is needed a strong physical shape because skilled players doesn't all the time power topspin and left a short ball near the net.