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twiddler wrote: on April 04 2024 at 3:55pm
Long pips has sent too many people away from the sport.

First of all . My apologies to twiddler for replying here in iocTT.com forum & not at MyTableTennis.net forum. I have to do it this way because I am banned in all ITTF worship forums such as the MyTableTennisNet, TTDAily, OOAK Forum, German TT News etc. You are welcome to reply here in this forum or reply at MyTableTennis.net . But be aware that, I can only post my replies to your rply here in iocTT.TT forum Sorry about that

That is pretty rich coming from some someone whose online posting handle is "twiddler".
Talk about throwing stones from inside a glass house
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black
OMG !!!!!

BTW to start with I am not at all suggesting that twiddler is the biggest cheat in table tennis.
But he definitely sounds like the worst honorary looper to me though.

Let me be VERY clear first. I don't think twiidler is a cheat. I am just playing devil's advocate for European robotNazis .
I have nothing but respect for twiddler's style & Eric’s style (I call it the American grip to honor both of them) & table tennis skills using anti rubbers., And personally I wish I could be an American grip player or a penholder.

European robotNazis initially complained like crazy in the late 70s when twiddler was #1 is USA & then Eric Boggan was #1 in the USA in early 80’s, John Hilron the 1980 European Champion & the Chinese player Cai Zhenhua, to get the 2 color rule passed around 1983. Initially Rev. Larry Hodges also saw this politically beneficial to him and strongly supported the 2 color rule, as he did support repeal of the spein glue ban in 1995 & the Durban 1998 AR (Aspect Ratio) Reduction Regulation massacre.
In all fairness , the European robotNazis robotNazis were not just complaining just only about the Anti rubbers. But they equally whined about the long pips as well. If I am not mistaken, the Hungarians actually called the Chinese Prime Minister Chou Enlai & complained about Liang Geliang’s (& another Chinese long pips player if I am not mistaken) long pips during a World Championships (I think either 1981 or 1983 but not 1979 when Hungary & other Europeans first used spein glue but that was obviously OK LOL ROTFL) . This was during the height of cold war & Hungary & China were both Soviet Bloc communist powers. So it seems like China chose to play these 2 choppers but China still won.
But my point is this > Anti & long pips arrived on the table tennis scene in the mid 70’s . But the original intended purpose of both long pips or anti was neither trickery nor deception but it was to help choppers with more backspin & control to handle the topspins of loopers. But it initially evolved that close to the table blockers (like twiddler, Eric & Cai Zhenhua) started using Anti for deception.
So the reason for the 2 color rule of 1983 is not primarily long pips but it was 90% the anti rubbers & most especially twiddler & Eric because they had more control over their rackets (like a penholder) when they twiddled unlike Cai, who could only mostly benefitted during the serve because he was a shakehand player.
Of course in all fairness, the long pips were also initially banned as well when the maximum pips length of pips was set to 2.00 mm by the ITTF.
And the most important thing here is this > Though anti & long pips were initially supposedly help choppers & not blockers, no top pro chopper (or even any other chopper for that matter) would touch the anti rubber with a 10 foot pole to this day (from mid 70s to 2024) . Why ? Choppers were not & are not looking for deception like anti players (twiddler, Eric & Cai) but they were and are only looking for maximum spin reversal with back spin with maximum control. Is there some decprion ? Yes but was a small unintended byproduct & that deception by chopping type long pips are nowhere cloes to even today;s blocking type long pips or even older anti.
I am also not saying that long pips did not evolve (or rather devolve) into a weapon of deception just like the antis.
Am I personally against both anti & long pips being weapons of deception ? No because in the context all the 12 rule changes that were made to fully limit long pips or were partially effecting long pips , I do not object to neither anti nor long pips the way they are (were) used so skillfully by close to the table blockers such as Luka Mladenovic, Fabian Akerstrom,Amelie Solja, Zhou Xintong, Ni Xia Lian & all the Indian girls & women etc . who are using smart rackets
It is also interesting that twiddler is not complaining about the new frictionless anti, which are supposed to far more deceptive than older antis. Again I am not complaining but just saying because I support them in the context of how ITTF has humiliated the choppers over & over 12 times since 1983.
The one of two huge problem I have with twiddler therefore is his acting as if anti is holy and only long pips are pure evil assuming or hoping no one, especially newcomers to the sport knows or understand the sad history of brutal oppression (now the extermination of) long pips choppers by the ITTF since 1983. . The other problem is the hardbat nutjobs like Marty Reisman & his cult members like Rev. Larry Hodges, Berndt Mann. Scott Gordon etc etc. hating on long pips as well & their other crazy agendas. I will address that separately.

Maltese Falcon wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2024, 9:58 pm
Am I personally against both anti & long pips being weapons of deception ? No because in the context all the 12 rule changes that were made to fully limit long pips or were partially effecting long pips , I do not object to neither anti nor long pips the way they are (were) used so skillfully by close to the table blockers such as Luka Mladenovic, Fabian Akerstrom,Amelie Solja, Zhou Xintong, Ni Xia Lian & all the Indian girls & women etc . who are using smart rackets

I have no problem with newcomer long pips players who have no idea of the abusive & corrupt history of ITTF agasint long pips.
But it is disgusying that long time long pips users are afarid to speak up against the rampant ITTF corruption .

So sad

IN table tennis , it is always the case of "onky my rubbers is holy & your rubbers are dirty and evil" & that in it self makes me a superior athlete than my opponent.
Only I win fair but they all cheat

Biomechnaics clearly dictates that the backhand is the weaker side for most human being in all racket sports. In table tennis the probability of a human having a loop & powerful hit on the backhand similar to forehand is about 20% at best and probably only 10%. However there is a higher probability that these players may have a better blocking or chopping skills on the backhand.
Tennis has identified this backhand weakness and has switched to two handed backhand 50 years so. Almost all but a few tennis players use single handed backhand now.
But ITTF has brainwashed the coaches too brainwash the players into thinking that a double inverted dum racket is the only proper way to play table tennis.
Additionally, If table tennis is supposedly the best sport for the faster brain development for children, should they not be starting using smart rackets & not dumb rackets , as most Indian children (& more & more Taiwanese children (demand) now ?
If table tennis is the supposedly best sport for therapeutic treatment of neuro cognitive issues, shouldn’t these older adults be using smart rackets & not dumb rackets ?
Shouldn’t most para players be suing only smart rackets ?

Most Indian girls * women have already rejected this Eurpopean dumb racket (double inverted) model & demand that they use only small rackets (spiiny Inverted o wide pips on forehand and long pips or anti on backhand)

Therefore, based on the above information, if any coach who does not start a new player especially a child, older adult or a para player with a smart racket but still starts them with a dumb racket based on ITTF's brainwashing, the coach is engaging in serious coaching malpractice

Children can switch to double inverted an year or two later in they demostrate consostent looping skills on their backhand but the probability of this possibility is only about 20% at best based on above analysis

Maltese Falcon wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2024, 9:58 pm I support them in the context of how ITTF has humiliated the choppers over & over 12 times since 1983.

So why do you say these 12 changes made by the ITTF to oppress the choppers ?
Why would ITTF would want to do that ?

Danny & Etic were great players but there is no doubt the anti rubber they used contributed significantly to their success.
Twiddler should not have used anti rubbers if he wanted to take the moral highground.

It does sound crazy to badmouth long pips after his using anti all his life especially as a blocker.

Twiddler is beng very disrespectful to choppers who all use only long pips and not anti.

Long pips players get abused constantly not only by robotNazis but also ny these RetroLunatics
Now twiddler , a honorary looper also jumps in.
All this was started by Marty Reisman, who held a 50 year grdge against sponge domain table tennis & then in later years against long pips.
And then Berndt Mann who admitted he was also traumatized by long pips just as Marty Reisman has gone on a rampage.
Then Rev. Larry Hodegs & hus cult members carried the torch
Now it seems to be twiddler.
There seems to be no end in sight with this crap of hardbat oppression

All spineless cowards never speak up

If you see any obvious atrocities abusing long pips , I would have thought strike back aggressively but they seems to suffer from this abused spouse syndrome.

Raptor wrote: ↑October 3rd, 2024, 12:54 pm So why do you say these 12 changes made by the ITTF to oppress the choppers ?
Why would ITTF would want to do that ?

Some of the changes sich as the 1998 Durban Aspect Ratio Reduction Regulation, 2004 Pip Density Reduction Regulation & the 2008 Frictionless Pips Ban were aimed 100% at limiting the capabilities of long pips.
These changes had absolutely nothing to do with any technical merits. there were 100% political.
I won't get into details here now but maybe later but this information has been discussed in various forums 100s of times


Other changes were not directly aimed at long pips but contribted partially to the demise of long pips in the 40+ plastic ball ONLY era.

It does not matter what the public thinks.
Simple fact of the matter is this
Twiddler & anti spin rubber was one of the 4 or 5 players who was the major reason the two color rule was implemented in 1983.
In all fairness to twiddler I also have to say long pips were also banned in 1983 first ( severely limited again in 1998 with the Durban Aspect Ratio Reduction Regulation & the 2004 pip density reduction regulation)
But my point is that twiddler’s anti was the major source of deception in 1983 and has become increasingly so with the introduction Frictionless Antis which have become lot more deceptive because the pips were limited again 2008 with the frictionless pips ban.

I personally absolutely have nothing against anti, as I do totally respect the skill of this 4 twiddlers & skill needed to do it. But above facts are why it is highly disrespectful of twiddler to badmouth long pips while one can say (& lot more do) that anti rubbers are as much of a garbage as previously long & now slim pips

I used the same rubber on both sides of my paddle for a couple of years and then in 1971 an anti sponge was used by a French player at the worlds in Nagoya.
Since I only used one side of the paddle I tried the anti on the other. It helped me to return serves. My style was innovative and no one had ever done it before. My brothers and Eric Boggan and Brian Masters copied my successful style.
In the beginning I won many matches because of the same color rule. I am actually proud that the color rule was changed because of me, Ricky and Eric.
What happened was the Chinese saw our success and started to use different rubbers with the same color. They were already the best but now they made a mockery of the game.
For years many players asked me why I don't use long pips instead of antispin. Truthfully I am not against long pips just frustrated that the sport never grows and gets more complicated with the new equipment. Long pips reverses the spin- anti just makes no spin.

twiddler wrote: ↑November 19th, 2024, 10:58 pm I used the same rubber on both sides of my paddle for a couple of years and then in 1971 an anti sponge was used by a French player at the worlds in Nagoya. Since I only used one side of the paddle I tried the anti on the other. It helped me to return serves. My style was innovative and no one had ever done it before. My brothers and Eric Boggan and Brian Masters copied my successful style.

I absolutely agree with you that your style was innovative especially quickly adopting to anti & exploiting its advantages.
But obviously this is not what ITTF thought of you & Eric & Cail etc

twiddler wrote: ↑November 19th, 2024, 10:58 pm What happened was the Chinese saw our success and started to use different rubbers with the same color. They were already the best but now they made a mockery of the game.

Actually I do not think Chinese were the best around the time of passing of the two color rule.
Sweden won the most coveted event the men;s team in 1983.
Hungary dminated the Chinese in 1979 .
So I really do not understand how China really made a mocekery of the sport.
In fact as far as I know Cai Zhenhua was the only player who was a close to the table (blocker type) player like you & Eric
Other Chinese , two or three players , were choppers One of those choppers was Liang Geliang
More importantly why is it a mockery when the Chinese do it & not you & Eric ? I am by no means saying that any of you made a mockery of the sport. It is European looper controlled ITTF (& the likes of Rev.Larry Hodges) who pushed for the two color rule successfully)

So if you felt it was a mockery of the sport, why did your continue using anti after that ?
You can claim that the two colr rule made it fair but it really did not.
Because the European loopers were using spein(speed+spin) glues to gain & keep their overwhekming advantage.
The playing field has tilted ever since ridiculously ever since in favor of spein glues & now boosted loopers with the 10 more additional rule & regulation changes by the ITTF to protect the illegally boosting loopers & exterminating the choppers at least on male side.
The 1998 Durban Aspect Ratio Reduction Regulation alone banned Feint Long (classic version) , which was used by almost every pro & top chopper (15 of them were pro , both male & female). ITTF actually gave TSP P1 Curl as the sorry excuse. The story of various long pips & their evolution & what Scholer & Dr>Neubauer had to do with these is a long story but I will keep it for a separate thread.

twiddler wrote: ↑November 19th, 2024, 10:58 pm For years many players asked me why I don't use long pips instead of antispin. Truthfully I am not against long pips just frustrated that the sport never grows and gets more complicated with the new equipment. Long pips reverses the spin- anti just makes no spin.

How ? Are you saying that it is OK for player's to use anti but not long pips ? I am sure you know the antis have gotten just as complicated as long pips after the ontroduction of frictionless antis (but the frictionless long pips were banned in 2008).
Are you saying the failure of the growth of the sport only due to long pips but not long pips ?
Are you saying taht it ws OK for the ITTF to extermnate the long pips choppers with 12 rule & regulation changes that fully or partially effect them ?

twiddler wrote: ↑November 19th, 2024, 10:58 pm Long pips reverses the spin- anti just makes no spin.

Partially agree but mostly disagree.
I have played with long pips since 1990. I have not played at your very high level but I have played at relatively higher amateur level & have played against the highest pro players & mant o fthem mor ethan once more than once in tournaments.
I also have done exhaustive research on long pips . So I am quite confident about this
I will make a separate post later in detail as to why I mostly disagree on this.
In the meantime you can take a look at some of the technical papaers I have written relted to long pips & other stuff
You can take a look if you like. Beloe is the link . The long pips articles are on page 2 on this home page

Table Tnnis blog Plano,Texas

I also have a page about anti spin rubbers