Is Twiddler the biggest cheat & the worst "honorary looper" in table tennis history ?

[Maltese Falcon]

on April 04 2024 at 3:55pm
Long pips has sent too many people away from the sport.

First of all . My apologies to twiddler for replying here in iocTT.com forum & not at MyTableTennis.net forum. I have to do it this way because I am banned in all ITTF worship forums such as the MyTableTennisNet, TTDAily, OOAK Forum, German TT News etc. You are welcome to reply here in this forum or reply at MyTableTennis.net . But be aware that, I can only post my replies to your rply here in iocTT.TT forum Sorry about that

That is pretty rich coming from some someone whose online posting handle is "twiddler".
Talk about throwing stones from inside a glass house
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black
OMG !!!!!

BTW to start with I am not at all suggesting that twiddler is the biggest cheat in table tennis.
But he definitely sounds like the worst honorary looper to me though.

Let me be VERY clear first. I don't think twiidler is a cheat. I am just playing devil's advocate for European robotNazis .
I have nothing but respect for twiddler's style & Eric’s style (I call it the American grip to honor both of them) & table tennis skills using anti rubbers., And personally I wish I could be an American grip player or a penholder.

European robotNazis initially complained like crazy in the late 70s when twiddler was #1 is USA & then Eric Boggan was #1 in the USA in early 80’s, John Hilron the 1980 European Champion & the Chinese player Cai Zhenhua, to get the 2 color rule passed around 1983. Initially Rev. Larry Hodges also saw this politically beneficial to him and strongly supported the 2 color rule, as he did support repeal of the spein glue ban in 1995 & the Durban 1998 AR (Aspect Ratio) Reduction Regulation massacre.
In all fairness , the European robotNazis robotNazis were not just complaining just only about the Anti rubbers. But they equally whined about the long pips as well. If I am not mistaken, the Hungarians actually called the Chinese Prime Minister Chou Enlai & complained about Liang Geliang’s (& another Chinese long pips player if I am not mistaken) long pips during a World Championships (I think either 1981 or 1983 but not 1979 when Hungary & other Europeans first used spein glue but that was obviously OK LOL ROTFL) . This was during the height of cold war & Hungary & China were both Soviet Bloc communist powers. So it seems like China chose to play these 2 choppers but China still won.
But my point is this > Anti & long pips arrived on the table tennis scene in the mid 70’s . But the original intended purpose of both long pips or anti was neither trickery nor deception but it was to help choppers with more backspin & control to handle the topspins of loopers. But it initially evolved that close to the table blockers (like twiddler, Eric & Cai Zhenhua) started using Anti for deception.
So the reason for the 2 color rule of 1983 is not primarily long pips but it was 90% the anti rubbers & most especially twiddler & Eric because they had more control over their rackets (like a penholder) when they twiddled unlike Cai, who could only mostly benefitted during the serve because he was a shakehand player.
Of course in all fairness, the long pips were also initially banned as well when the maximum pips length of pips was set to 2.00 mm by the ITTF.
And the most important thing here is this > Though anti & long pips were initially supposedly help choppers & not blockers, no top pro chopper (or even any other chopper for that matter) would touch the anti rubber with a 10 foot pole to this day (from mid 70s to 2024) . Why ? Choppers were not & are not looking for deception like anti players (twiddler, Eric & Cai) but they were and are only looking for maximum spin reversal with back spin with maximum control. Is there some decprion ? Yes but was a small unintended byproduct & that deception by chopping type long pips are nowhere cloes to even today;s blocking type long pips or even older anti.
I am also not saying that long pips did not evolve (or rather devolve) into a weapon of deception just like the antis.
Am I personally against both anti & long pips being weapons of deception ? No because in the context all the 12 rule changes that were made to fully limit long pips or were partially effecting long pips , I do not object to neither anti nor long pips the way they are (were) used so skillfully by close to the table blockers such as Luka Mladenovic, Fabian Akerstrom,Amelie Solja, Zhou Xintong, Ni Xia Lian & all the Indian girls & women etc . who are using smart rackets
It is also interesting that twiddler is not complaining about the new frictionless anti, which are supposed to far more deceptive than older antis. Again I am not complaining but just saying because I support them in the context of how ITTF has humiliated the choppers over & over 12 times since 1983.
The one of two huge problem I have with twiddler therefore is his acting as if anti is holy and only long pips are pure evil assuming or hoping no one, especially newcomers to the sport knows or understand the sad history of brutal oppression (now the extermination of) long pips choppers by the ITTF since 1983. . The other problem is the hardbat nutjobs like Marty Reisman & his cult members like Rev. Larry Hodges, Berndt Mann. Scott Gordon etc etc. hating on long pips as well & their other crazy agendas. I will address that separately.

[Loop 2 Day]

Am I personally against both anti & long pips being weapons of deception ? No because in the context all the 12 rule changes that were made to fully limit long pips or were partially effecting long pips , I do not object to neither anti nor long pips the way they are (were) used so skillfully by close to the table blockers such as Luka Mladenovic, Fabian Akerstrom,Amelie Solja, Zhou Xintong, Ni Xia Lian & all the Indian girls & women etc . who are using smart rackets

I have no problem with newcomer long pips players who have no idea of the abusive & corrupt history of ITTF agasint long pips.
But it is disgusying that long time long pips users are afarid to speak up against the rampant ITTF corruption .

So sad

[Edge Spin]

IN table tennis , it is always the case of "onky my rubbers is holy & your rubbers are dirty and evil" & that in it self makes me a superior athlete than my opponent.
Only I win fair but they all cheat

[Forbflaith]

Biomechnaics clearly dictates that the backhand is the weaker side for most human being in all racket sports. In table tennis the probability of a human having a loop & powerful hit on the backhand similar to forehand is about 20% at best and probably only 10%. However there is a higher probability that these players may have a better blocking or chopping skills on the backhand.
Tennis has identified this backhand weakness and has switched to two handed backhand 50 years so. Almost all but a few tennis players use single handed backhand now.
But ITTF has brainwashed the coaches too brainwash the players into thinking that a double inverted dum racket is the only proper way to play table tennis.
Additionally, If table tennis is supposedly the best sport for the faster brain development for children, should they not be starting using smart rackets & not dumb rackets , as most Indian children (& more & more Taiwanese children (demand) now ?
If table tennis is the supposedly best sport for therapeutic treatment of neuro cognitive issues, shouldn’t these older adults be using smart rackets & not dumb rackets ?
Shouldn’t most para players be suing only smart rackets ?

Most Indian girls * women have already rejected this Eurpopean dumb racket (double inverted) model & demand that they use only small rackets (spiiny Inverted o wide pips on forehand and long pips or anti on backhand)

Therefore, based on the above information, if any coach who does not start a new player especially a child, older adult or a para player with a smart racket but still starts them with a dumb racket based on ITTF's brainwashing, the coach is engaging in serious coaching malpractice

Children can switch to double inverted an year or two later in they demostrate consostent looping skills on their backhand but the probability of this possibility is only about 20% at best based on above analysis

[Raptor]

I support them in the context of how ITTF has humiliated the choppers over & over 12 times since 1983.

So why do you say these 12 changes made by the ITTF to oppress the choppers ?
Why would ITTF would want to do that ?

[Loopenator]

Danny & Etic were great players but there is no doubt the anti rubber they used contributed significantly to their success.
Twiddler should not have used anti rubbers if he wanted to take the moral highground.

It does sound crazy to badmouth long pips after his using anti all his life especially as a blocker.

Twiddler is beng very disrespectful to choppers who all use only long pips and not anti.

[Spin Life]

Long pips players get abused constantly not only by robotNazis but also ny these RetroLunatics
Now twiddler , a honorary looper also jumps in.
All this was started by Marty Reisman, who held a 50 year grdge against sponge domain table tennis & then in later years against long pips.
And then Berndt Mann who admitted he was also traumatized by long pips just as Marty Reisman has gone on a rampage.
Then Rev. Larry Hodegs & hus cult members carried the torch
Now it seems to be twiddler.
There seems to be no end in sight with this crap of hardbat oppression

All spineless cowards never speak up

If you see any obvious atrocities abusing long pips , I would have thought strike back aggressively but they seems to suffer from this abused spouse syndrome.

[Loop 360]

So why do you say these 12 changes made by the ITTF to oppress the choppers ?
Why would ITTF would want to do that ?

Some of the changes sich as the 1998 Durban Aspect Ratio Reduction Regulation, 2004 Pip Density Reduction Regulation & the 2008 Frictionless Pips Ban were aimed 100% at limiting the capabilities of long pips.
These changes had absolutely nothing to do with any technical merits. there were 100% political.
I won't get into details here now but maybe later but this information has been discussed in various forums 100s of times


Other changes were not directly aimed at long pips but contribted partially to the demise of long pips in the 40+ plastic ball ONLY era.

[Spin Legend]

It does not matter what the public thinks.
Simple fact of the matter is this
Twiddler & anti spin rubber was one of the 4 or 5 players who was the major reason the two color rule was implemented in 1983.
In all fairness to twiddler I also have to say long pips were also banned in 1983 first ( severely limited again in 1998 with the Durban Aspect Ratio Reduction Regulation & the 2004 pip density reduction regulation)
But my point is that twiddler’s anti was the major source of deception in 1983 and has become increasingly so with the introduction Frictionless Antis which have become lot more deceptive because the pips were limited again 2008 with the frictionless pips ban.

I personally absolutely have nothing against anti, as I do totally respect the skill of this 4 twiddlers & skill needed to do it. But above facts are why it is highly disrespectful of twiddler to badmouth long pips while one can say (& lot more do) that anti rubbers are as much of a garbage as previously long & now slim pips

[twiddler]

I used the same rubber on both sides of my paddle for a couple of years and then in 1971 an anti sponge was used by a French player at the worlds in Nagoya.
Since I only used one side of the paddle I tried the anti on the other. It helped me to return serves. My style was innovative and no one had ever done it before. My brothers and Eric Boggan and Brian Masters copied my successful style.
In the beginning I won many matches because of the same color rule. I am actually proud that the color rule was changed because of me, Ricky and Eric.
What happened was the Chinese saw our success and started to use different rubbers with the same color. They were already the best but now they made a mockery of the game.
For years many players asked me why I don't use long pips instead of antispin. Truthfully I am not against long pips just frustrated that the sport never grows and gets more complicated with the new equipment. Long pips reverses the spin- anti just makes no spin.

[James Z]

I used the same rubber on both sides of my paddle for a couple of years and then in 1971 an anti sponge was used by a French player at the worlds in Nagoya. Since I only used one side of the paddle I tried the anti on the other. It helped me to return serves. My style was innovative and no one had ever done it before. My brothers and Eric Boggan and Brian Masters copied my successful style.

I absolutely agree with you that your style was innovative especially quickly adopting to anti & exploiting its advantages.
But obviously this is not what ITTF thought of you & Eric & Cail etc

What happened was the Chinese saw our success and started to use different rubbers with the same color. They were already the best but now they made a mockery of the game.

Actually I do not think Chinese were the best around the time of passing of the two color rule.
Sweden won the most coveted event the men;s team in 1983.
Hungary dminated the Chinese in 1979 .
So I really do not understand how China really made a mocekery of the sport.
In fact as far as I know Cai Zhenhua was the only player who was a close to the table (blocker type) player like you & Eric
Other Chinese , two or three players , were choppers One of those choppers was Liang Geliang
More importantly why is it a mockery when the Chinese do it & not you & Eric ? I am by no means saying that any of you made a mockery of the sport. It is European looper controlled ITTF (& the likes of Rev.Larry Hodges) who pushed for the two color rule successfully)

So if you felt it was a mockery of the sport, why did your continue using anti after that ?
You can claim that the two colr rule made it fair but it really did not.
Because the European loopers were using spein(speed+spin) glues to gain & keep their overwhekming advantage.
The playing field has tilted ever since ridiculously ever since in favor of spein glues & now boosted loopers with the 10 more additional rule & regulation changes by the ITTF to protect the illegally boosting loopers & exterminating the choppers at least on male side.
The 1998 Durban Aspect Ratio Reduction Regulation alone banned Feint Long (classic version) , which was used by almost every pro & top chopper (15 of them were pro , both male & female). ITTF actually gave TSP P1 Curl as the sorry excuse. The story of various long pips & their evolution & what Scholer & Dr>Neubauer had to do with these is a long story but I will keep it for a separate thread.

For years many players asked me why I don't use long pips instead of antispin. Truthfully I am not against long pips just frustrated that the sport never grows and gets more complicated with the new equipment. Long pips reverses the spin- anti just makes no spin.

How ? Are you saying that it is OK for player's to use anti but not long pips ? I am sure you know the antis have gotten just as complicated as long pips after the ontroduction of frictionless antis (but the frictionless long pips were banned in 2008).
Are you saying the failure of the growth of the sport only due to long pips but not long pips ?
Are you saying taht it ws OK for the ITTF to extermnate the long pips choppers with 12 rule & regulation changes that fully or partially effect them ?

Long pips reverses the spin- anti just makes no spin.

Partially agree but mostly disagree.
I have played with long pips since 1990. I have not played at your very high level but I have played at relatively higher amateur level & have played against the highest pro players & mant o fthem mor ethan once more than once in tournaments.
I also have done exhaustive research on long pips . So I am quite confident about this
I will make a separate post later in detail as to why I mostly disagree on this.
In the meantime you can take a look at some of the technical papaers I have written relted to long pips & other stuff
You can take a look if you like. Beloe is the link . The long pips articles are on page 2 on this home page

Table Tennis blog Plano,Texas

I also have a page about anti spin rubbers

[twiddler]

China won the 1981 and the 1983 world teams easily. Sweden did not win. China won 5-0 in the final in Tokyo over Sweden.

[twiddler]

See you later.

[James Z]

China won the 1981 and the 1983 world teams easily. Sweden did not win. China won 5-0 in the final in Tokyo over Sweden.

You are absolurely correct. I made am error in referring to Sweden's 1973 win as 1983 win.
It was a malor brain fart on my part.
BUt you are welcome to fact check any other statements I made.
I would be more than happy to apologize & correct myself
But who won the 1979 team event ?

You did not answer my question as to how many players on th China team were the cause of this ?
Hungary beat China twice in the team event badly with spein glued rackest.
But as soon as European started losing they started blaming Chinese rubbers.
This was the cause of the two color rule & the first ban on long pips (by setting the maximum allowed pip length at 2.0 mm)
Didn't the Hungarianas call Chinese prime minister Choi En Lai directly and ask them no to play these players like Liang Geliang ?
If you read Tim Boggan's book, it is all these.
Liang Geliang was a chopper NOT a blocker like you or Eric
The original intended reason for the introduction of the sport was NOT for blockers . It was for choppers
But anti miserably failed as a chopping tool. But all the close to the table blockers have adopted it not to suffer the wrath of the spein glued looped & not be scorn by the loopers.
In other words the anti players have become “honorary lloopers”
Show me one top chopper in the history of the sport who used anti after maybe John Hilton who also used anti on the other side.
No pro or top chopper in their right mind will touch an anti rubber with a 10 foot racket.
Yet you & the booster freaks controlled ITTF want to claim that long pips are the ONE & ONLY reason for all the evil in the sport.
Are you saying that only long pips be banned from the sport ? And not the anti ?

Choppers have been punished over & over & over & over by the ITTF like 12 rule and regulation changes since 1983
If choppers are the true evil and not the unhealthy illegally boosted loopers are not the true cancer (literally & figuratively that is) upon the sport, why not just ban all long pips ONLY ?
Why do you keep one or two choppers in the sport and laugh at them & and humiliate them ?

Do you really think banning all long pips will make the sport any less complicated ?
What happends to anti then ?

[James Z]

See you later.

That is perfectly oK
But it seems odd that you have jumped all over on mistake I made but seems to have conveniently ignored all my other questions.

Table tennis ia one of the most complicated individual sport with or without long pips or with or without anti.
If you believe turning table tennis into pickleball (or hardbat) by banning all the long pips (and anti) will make the sport any less complicated & more spectator friendly (and by exterminating all the choppers including the few that are left over on women’s side) but want to keep the unhealthy boosters & resulting third ball attacks, then ITTF should do it. BTW I am by no means advocating that 50% of players should be choppers. That would be absurd.

The previou ITTF president Thomas Wekert did in fact try this with his misrably failed misadventure called TTX

The probability of a most spectacular match happening for (non TT playing) spectators is not with the illegally boosted up third ball attacks between two loopers. It is when a male looper meets a male chopper. Yet ITTF in its infinite wisdom has successfully exterminated all choppers on male side and yet it is not enough for the illegally boosted loopers. You want blood from stone ?
Why torture the choppers with rule change after rule change ? Why not just ban all long pips ?
Because you & I both know why. ITTF does not want to lose its total &absolute control over the sport with the long pips (anti) players starting their own separate association (like the spein glued loopers led by Rev. Larry Hodge etc, threatened to do in 1995 to get the ban repealed in a matter of months)
There are many other questions I brought up about long pips & anti that you have chosen not to answer
That is OK

[James Z]

Twiddler (or Eric) raraely ever lost to choppers in their prime.
But I am not at all syaing that they won ONLY because of their anti.
They won because of their offensive & overall skills & not just because of their anti.
But fact remains that most loopers consider choppers to be a huge nuisance & "use" the close to te htable blockers who use long pips as an excuse to repeatedly have the rules chnaged ending up punsihing the choppers even more.

This was the case in 1983.
When loopers forced ITTF to pass the two color rule & initial ban on on long pips (limiying pip length to 2.0 mm)
They used Cai & Twiddler & ERic & John Holton as the excuse

This was the case in 1998
They blamed microwaved TSP P1 Curl ending up punishing all the top pro choppers (male & female) & most top non pro choppers as well, (15 or 16 of them) who were all using Feint Long Classic (and not TSP P1 Curl)

This was the case in 2004 .
They blamed Liu Gup Liang to change the pip density rule

And not to mention the other 7 or so changes that also negatively impacted choppers indirectly

[James Z]

See you later.

I meant in no way to disrespect you by contesting your claims.
You are an absolute legend in the sport both as a player & a coach
And yes , as you said it was absolutely brilliant on your part after 1971 by quickly adopting to use anti and pioneering a whole new style that helped Eric & 100s of other Amreican grip players.
But you still have to answer why only long pips is the only reason table tennis is so complicated but anti does not

I can get into the long history of the battle between Scholer (ITTF) & Dr.Nebauer on both fronts, anti & long pips but I will get into that later

[James Z]

Twiddler may also find this fact interesting (I am sure he knows but I bring it up fo rbenefit of others) since he is propsoing inverted only events

Sometime in the 90's when Sweden was on top , they actually proposed a rule chnage that mandated that both sides of the racket must be identical rubbers (of corse it did not pass)

But the weidest part of all this is this.
Sometime around 2010 or few years after when Fabian Akerstrom (a Swdish player) was doing well using leftover frictionless long pips, Sweden actually proposed that ITTF should repeal the 2008 Frictionless Pips Ban (Even Waldner supported this I think) .

To me this was a height of hypocrisy because it was a 180 degree flip from proposing that both sides must be same rubbers

Even moe crazier part is that Rev.Larry Hidges supported the repeal of the 2008 frictionless Pips Ban. This was so bizarre because Rev. Larry Hodges said that he supported the 1998 Durban Aspect Ratio Reduction Change because it would rescue billions of chidren from the clutches of the evel long pips but the repeal of the Frictiionless pips ban would not effect any children LOL

[James Z]

It is also rather unfortunate that twiddler should come off as an "honorary looper" because when it comes to looping,
twiddler is as real as it gets.
Because according to Chester Barne's book, in his prime twiddler (& Hasegawa) had the fastedt loop in the world.

[James Z]

For argument's sake, Let us just assume that the color rule of 1983 was fully justified
.
Do you still think the other 11 changes since 1983 that fully or partially aimed at limiting the capabilities of choppers is fully justified ?
Click on link above in blue to launch link to read about those 11 changes

[James Z]

First of all let me be very clear
I have nothing against anti.
But in 2024 even the frictionless antis are absolutely useless rubbers even for blockers even with all the deception it gives
Of course antis (even the old grippy antis like the ones that twiddler used such as Butterfly Super anti or yaska Anti Poweer) are a functionally useless joke for choppers.

Theerfore given that ITTF banned all frictionless long pips in 2008, one could argue that it is the (frictionless) antis that are the number 1 evil reason why table tennis is not popular and it is not because of long pips LOL

Because keep in mind that there is a COF (Coefficient of friction) minimum limit of 0.5 only on the long pips and there is no such minimum required COF limit for antis.

Again, personally I have nothing against all 4 types of rubbers
1. Grippy old type anti
2. New frictionless antis
3. Frictionless long pips (banned in 2008)
4. High friction chopper long pips (banned in 1998 & totally only useless versions exist after that)

From a technical standpoint I could oppose both frictionless antis & long pips because they are puposely designed to randimize ball flight patterns. But from the perspective of providing a fair & level playing field especilly for older players, I would strongly support them

Grippy old anti are almost totally fuctionally useless anyway even for blockers in the 40+ plastic ball era
Current versions of grippy so called long pips are also a functionally useless joke for choppers anyway.

[James Z]

China won the 1981 and the 1983 world teams easily. Sweden did not win. China won 5-0 in the final in Tokyo over Sweden.

Attached is the results from web
It shows China wom 5-1 and not 5-0
I could easily claim you are twisting the facts but I do not think you are an dit is just an honest mistake
Just like I mistakenly typed 1983 for 1973 as to when Sweden won.

Anyway please note that in the 1983 team finals Jiang Ji Liang was a short pips hitter (no anti on other side)
Xie Saike > Lookinta his videos he was a penholder but either an inverted looper or a short pips hitter but I do not seem his using any anti on other side
And I do not see Xie Saike twiddling hi spenhold racket
So only Cai Zhenhua was an anti player but you claim that China had lots of anti & long pips players, which I do not see

Additionally in the singles Guo Yaehua beat Cai Zhenhua in the finals
So I resepectfully beg to differ with your opinion that it was a Chinese domination at 1983 using anti and long pips.

[James Z]

One could also argue that penhold or American grip players (twiddler & Eric) were bigger cheats than shakehand players like Cai Zhenhua because shkehand players have lesser control over what rubber they will use.

How ?
Because if a ball comes to the backhand side of a shakehander , they have no coice as to what they can use on that side.
But a penholder or Ameican grip player has more control because they choose when they will use what side during a rally.
I agree that twiddling during a serve can be an issue but that is the same equally for all grip types.

As far as I know all long pips or anti Chinese twiddlers were all shakehanders except may be one called the magical (penhold) chopper Zhang Xielin but I do not think he twiddled either

Keep in mind again that I am not at all saying that neither twiddler nor Eric were cheats. It was the European loopers who forced ITTF to make rule change after rule change

[James Z]

China won the 1981 and the 1983 world teams easily. Sweden did not win. China won 5-0 in the final in Tokyo over Sweden.

Attached is the results from web
It shows China wom 5-1 and not 5-0 in 1983
China did beat Sweden 5-0 in 1985 not 1983
I could easily claim you are twisting the facts but I do not think you are and it is just an honest mistake
Just like I mistakenly typed 1983 for 1973 as to when Sweden won.

Anyway please note that in the 1983 team finals Jiang Ji Liang was a short pips hitter (no anti on other side)
Xie Saike > Lookinta his videos he was a penholder but either an inverted looper or a short pips hitter but I do not seem his using any anti on other side
And I do not see Xie Saike twiddling hi spenhold racket
So only Cai Zhenhua was an anti player but you claim that China had lots of anti & long pips players, which I do not see

Additionally in the singles Guo Yaehua beat Cai Zhenhua in the finals
So I resepectfully beg to differ with your opinion that it was a Chinese domination at 1983 using anti and long pips.

[James Z]

Attached are the results for 1985
Both Jiang JiLaiang & Chen Longcan were short pip traditional penhold hitters and they did not twiddle or play RPH
Chen Xinhua was an away from the table chopper and not a close to the table blocker like Cai Zhenhua using anti
But Chen Xinhua was using a two color racket as you can see in the video below.
Also long pips were already banned in 1983 when ITTF set the maximum pip length at 2.0 mm
(ITTF keeps calling this pips long pips to fool the choppers & they continue to fall for this rainwashing)
So do you still want to blame this on chopper Chen Xinhua for Chinese domination ?